Good day. I'm a Romanian ReactOS translator. (For those who don't know, ReactOS is an operating system which seeks to be 100% compatible and similar to Windows NT.) Many translations from Wine are passed to the ReactOS project when synchronizing the source code.
That leads to the fact that I can't directly translate and/or update any translation of ReactOS files that are in sync with Wine. Some translations are already done here on the Wine project but some of them are wrong (For example Basic colours is translated incorrectly as Culori de basă when the correct translation is Culori de bază), others don't fit with the rest of the translations (The translations of ReactOS should retain the terminology used in Windows. In Windows, Cancel is translated to Revocare, in Wine the translation is Renunţă which is the imperative form of the verb a renunţa - to give up).
I was told I should speak to you if I want to change these translations but the problem is that many Linux distributions are translated in Romanian using Renunţă as Cancel etc and if I try to change the translation in Wine, then the Romanian Linux-users will strongly disagree ...
Now that's a problem! What do you suggest I should do?
I'm pretty sure you should adapt Windows terminology. That's what's being done with other languages, AFAIK.
2009/4/26 Dimitriu Petru petrimetri@gmail.com:
Good day. I'm a Romanian ReactOS translator. (For those who don't know, ReactOS is an operating system which seeks to be 100% compatible and similar to Windows NT.) Many translations from Wine are passed to the ReactOS project when synchronizing the source code.
That leads to the fact that I can't directly translate and/or update any translation of ReactOS files that are in sync with Wine. Some translations are already done here on the Wine project but some of them are wrong (For example Basic colours is translated incorrectly as Culori de basă when the correct translation is Culori de bază), others don't fit with the rest of the translations (The translations of ReactOS should retain the terminology used in Windows. In Windows, Cancel is translated to Revocare, in Wine the translation is Renunţă which is the imperative form of the verb a renunţa - to give up).
I was told I should speak to you if I want to change these translations but the problem is that many Linux distributions are translated in Romanian using Renunţă as Cancel etc and if I try to change the translation in Wine, then the Romanian Linux-users will strongly disagree ...
Now that's a problem! What do you suggest I should do?
2009/4/26 Dimitriu Petru petrimetri@gmail.com: Ok then, regarding Romanian translations... ReactOS would appreciate if I retain the Windows-like terminology but I'm going to use Anulare instead of Renunţă. Please notice that Renunţă, Aplică, Deschide, Salvează etc. are imperative verbs, while Windows uses exclusively nouns. I think I'll eventually send a diff patch at ReactOS and leave the Wine translation as it is...
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dimitriu Petru wrote:
2009/4/26 Dimitriu Petru petrimetri@gmail.com: Ok then, regarding Romanian translations... ReactOS would appreciate if I retain the Windows-like terminology but I'm going to use Anulare instead of Renunţă. Please notice that Renunţă, Aplică, Deschide, Salvează etc. are imperative verbs, while Windows uses exclusively nouns. I think I'll eventually send a diff patch at ReactOS and leave the Wine translation as it is...
Not being a speaker of a non-English language, this sounds a bit strange... Cancel is an action, Save is an action... Microsoft uses nouns for these actions? Granted, Wine tries to be bug-for-bug compatible, but.. huh?
Steve Brown sbrown7@umbc.edu
2009/4/27 Steve Brown sbrown7@umbc.edu:
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dimitriu Petru wrote:
2009/4/26 Dimitriu Petru petrimetri@gmail.com: Ok then, regarding Romanian translations... ReactOS would appreciate if I retain the Windows-like terminology but I'm going to use Anulare instead of Renunţă. Please notice that Renunţă, Aplică, Deschide, Salvează etc. are imperative verbs, while Windows uses exclusively nouns. I think I'll eventually send a diff patch at ReactOS and leave the Wine translation as it is...
Not being a speaker of a non-English language, this sounds a bit strange... Cancel is an action, Save is an action... Microsoft uses nouns for these actions? Granted, Wine tries to be bug-for-bug compatible, but.. huh?
Not in Spanish at least. It is usually a verb: Aceptar, Cancelar...
Well words like Cancel or Save or Open or Close can be translated in three ways: - the first is when you translate them using an imperative just like you're commanding your computer to do that, like speaking to a person face to face (Renunţă, Salvează, Deschide, Închide, etc which mean (You) cancel, (You) save, (You) open, (You) close etc.) - the second one is using a noun to define the action that will happen when pressing the button or the control etc. (Renunţare, Salvare, Deschidere, Închidere) - the third one is using a verb that denotes that the computer is proposing you to do something by pressing a button or a control etc. (Renunţă/Renunţaţi, Salvează/Salvaţi, Deschide/Deschideţi, Închide/Închideţi)
I prefer the second way because I don't like speaking to a computer like you speak to your friend or younger brother and I also don't like that the computer speaks to the user like a person. The computer is a machine, it doesn't have a soul, people do have.
In Spanish, they use Aceptar, Cancelar, etc. but I guess that these are the infinitive forms of the verbs. Well in Romanian, verbs can be turned into nouns by adding a suffix and also the verbs can be treated as nouns in some situations.
On Mon, 27 Apr 2009, Dimitriu Petru wrote:
Well words like Cancel or Save or Open or Close can be translated in three ways:
- the first is when you translate them using an imperative just like
you're commanding your computer to do that, like speaking to a person face to face (Renunţă, Salvează, Deschide, Închide, etc which mean (You) cancel, (You) save, (You) open, (You) close etc.)
- the second one is using a noun to define the action that will happen
when pressing the button or the control etc. (Renunţare, Salvare, Deschidere, Închidere)
- the third one is using a verb that denotes that the computer is
proposing you to do something by pressing a button or a control etc. (Renunţă/Renunţaţi, Salvează/Salvaţi, Deschide/Deschideţi, Închide/Închideţi)
I prefer the second way because I don't like speaking to a computer like you speak to your friend or younger brother and I also don't like that the computer speaks to the user like a person. The computer is a machine, it doesn't have a soul, people do have.
In Spanish, they use Aceptar, Cancelar, etc. but I guess that these are the infinitive forms of the verbs. Well in Romanian, verbs can be turned into nouns by adding a suffix and also the verbs can be treated as nouns in some situations.
I always assumed that when I hit the Cancel, Save, etc. buttons, it was equivalent to me commanding the computer to: Cancel what it was doing on my behalf, Save the open file.... so imperatave verbs would be the preferred translation. I can understand that other cultures might have issues with this interpretation, so I would defer to your judgement in this regard. Yes, the machine doesn't have a soul, but in this instance, it could be considered your "servant" (or, at least, it should be... some would say computers are "possessed" and have a mind of their own, but that's another story).
Steve Brown sbrown7@umbc.edu
Salut!
Dimitriu Petru wrote:
Well words like Cancel or Save or Open or Close can be translated in three ways:
- the first is when you translate them using an imperative just like
you're commanding your computer to do that, like speaking to a person face to face (Renunţă, Salvează, Deschide, Închide, etc which mean (You) cancel, (You) save, (You) open, (You) close etc.)
- the second one is using a noun to define the action that will happen
when pressing the button or the control etc. (Renunţare, Salvare, Deschidere, Închidere)
- the third one is using a verb that denotes that the computer is
proposing you to do something by pressing a button or a control etc. (Renunţă/Renunţaţi, Salvează/Salvaţi, Deschide/Deschideţi, Închide/Închideţi)
I prefer the second way because I don't like speaking to a computer like you speak to your friend or younger brother and I also don't like that the computer speaks to the user like a person. The computer is a machine, it doesn't have a soul, people do have.
But the first form seems to be the correct one. And that's what I used. See http://i18n.ro/Ghidul_traducatorului_de_software; I have seen other translation guides that have basically the same rules on how to "speak" to the computer (i have those bookmarked but I'm far away from my home computer).
The computer isn't a human being but that's irrelevant; there was nothing in the non-living world that required interaction with natural language. And it seems that natural language interaction in Romanian is better done by treating the computer like a person. The noun form really sounds awkward.
In Spanish, they use Aceptar, Cancelar, etc. but I guess that these are the infinitive forms of the verbs. Well in Romanian, verbs can be turned into nouns by adding a suffix and also the verbs can be treated as nouns in some situations.
Too bad that the infinitive form is not really useful in the Romanian language and it is very seldom used.
In regards to "Renunță" versus "Revocare" I'm taking "Renunță" as that is a better description of the action and it matches the systems Wine runs on. Somebody mentioned "bug for bug compatibility with Windows" but that applies only if that bug is needed to make an application run. And that's not at all the case here.
bye michael
On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 00:23 -0400, Michael Stefaniuc wrote:
Salut!
Dimitriu Petru wrote:
Well words like Cancel or Save or Open or Close can be translated in three ways:
- the first is when you translate them using an imperative just like
you're commanding your computer to do that, like speaking to a person face to face (Renunţă, Salvează, Deschide, Închide, etc which mean (You) cancel, (You) save, (You) open, (You) close etc.)
- the second one is using a noun to define the action that will happen
when pressing the button or the control etc. (Renunţare, Salvare, Deschidere, Închidere)
- the third one is using a verb that denotes that the computer is
proposing you to do something by pressing a button or a control etc. (Renunţă/Renunţaţi, Salvează/Salvaţi, Deschide/Deschideţi, Închide/Închideţi)
I prefer the second way because I don't like speaking to a computer like you speak to your friend or younger brother and I also don't like that the computer speaks to the user like a person. The computer is a machine, it doesn't have a soul, people do have.
But the first form seems to be the correct one. And that's what I used. See http://i18n.ro/Ghidul_traducatorului_de_software; I have seen other translation guides that have basically the same rules on how to "speak" to the computer (i have those bookmarked but I'm far away from my home computer).
The computer isn't a human being but that's irrelevant; there was nothing in the non-living world that required interaction with natural language. And it seems that natural language interaction in Romanian is better done by treating the computer like a person. The noun form really sounds awkward.
As a native Romanian speaker, I agree with Michael 100%. The 2nd and 3rd forms sound awkward. But beyond our personal preferences, I think the Romanian user is best served by a consistent translation across systems.
If we let our momentary preferences dictate the form for every system that gets translated, folks will get confused, and few will appreciate the noun vs. verb based nuances :)
Dimitriu Petru wrote:
2009/4/26 Dimitriu Petru petrimetri@gmail.com: Ok then, regarding Romanian translations... ReactOS would appreciate if I retain the Windows-like terminology but I'm going to use Anulare instead of Renunţă. Please notice that Renunţă, Aplică, Deschide, Salvează etc. are imperative verbs, while Windows uses exclusively nouns. I think I'll eventually send a diff patch at ReactOS and leave the Wine translation as it is...
Just wondering, are you discussing some key command names here or translation in general?
I still don't follow why, e.g. Romanian, user should work with different names while doing the same things on native system or somewhere else under wine?
Why are you speaking about 'tweaking a bit' resources for some reason when they already have stable values on native systems: Wine's aim is to behave like native as close as possible, so why should any exception be added here especially for such easy-to-follow question?
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Cesar Izurieta -
Dimi Paun -
Dimitriu Petru -
Jerome Leclanche -
Michael Stefaniuc -
Nikolay Sivov -
Steve Brown